Tulsans want TPD cars in city, poll finds

By NICOLE MARSHALL World Staff Writer - 11/7/2009




Related story: Fund set up to get 3 laid-off officers rehired.


A poll conducted by the Tulsa World indicates that city voters overwhelmingly would prefer that police who live outside the city limits relinquish their right to take their cars home rather than have the city lay off officers, ground the Police Department's helicopters and eliminate its mounted patrol.

However, respondents were basing their answers on the assumption that the change would save the department about $1 million per year, and questions linger as to whether that amount would actually be saved if the cars were kept inside the city limits, as the city has reported.

Police Chief Ron Palmer said Friday that the figure was a "decent estimate, but I am not sure if we would realize that full amount or not when it was finally said and done."

He said the figure is fluid, based on things such as fuel costs, but that he would estimate the savings at somewhere between $500,000 and $1 million per year.

"I'd hate to say if we would change that (policy), we would exactly gain those savings," Palmer said. "And those savings would be over the long term, as opposed to just the short-term immediacy of having a million dollars in our pocket, because that would not happen."

A city councilor has said layoffs, grounding the police helicopters and eliminating the mounted patrol could be avoided if the police union would give up take-home vehicles for officers who live outside of Tulsa.

The Tulsa World poll shows that 88 percent of those questioned would rather see the union give up the cars than have the city lay off officers and lose police specialty units.

Margaret Parks, one of the people surveyed, said she would rather have more police on the streets than allow the officers who live outside Tulsa to take their cars home.

"I believe that the more police we have on the streets, it is going to be better. If it takes a few minutes to go down and pick up a car, then so be it," she said.

Parks said she has lived in Tulsa for about 30 years and feels "a little less safe than she used to be."

She said she realizes that the city's budget crunch makes cutbacks necessary, "but if there is any way possible to get all of the officers back, that would be the way to go."

Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 93 President Phil Evans said he couldn't talk about negotiations with the city because that would violate the police arbitration act. However, he said he believes Tulsans don't have an accurate perception of the cuts occurring at the Police Department.

When compared with other cities, "Tulsa spends the least per capita on public safety, and they are wanting to spend less," Evans said. "I don't know where the money is going. That is a good question for the next council to examine, and possibly we need to change our form of government so these things can be taken care of."

Kim MacLeod, city spokeswoman, said the city's $1.1 million figure was based on a 2007 energy-efficiency report that was written by a mayoral aide who no longer works for the city.

City officials couldn't say whether the number was based on all of the department's cars or just the ones that go outside the city limits.

"If it was going to be something the union was going to consider doing," she said, "we would go back and analyze it again, but it has not ever really been something that has been on the table so far."

Palmer said the savings due to mileage, maintenance and gas consumption would be obvious if the department went back to its former policy requiring that the cars stay within the city limits.

"At one time we were computing that based on a $4 (per gallon) fuel cost. I think we are paying half of that now," he said.

If the policy were changed, Palmer said, "a fairly significant savings would occur just because of the sheer number of cars that are driven home outside the city limits now."

He said officers drive about 400 marked and unmarked cars to their homes. Some of those cars are driven by officers who are part of emergency units.

Former Mayor Bill LaFortune's staff negotiated a 25-mile radius from 41st Street and Yale Avenue in which police are allowed to take their vehicles home. It was intended to make up for the lack of raises for police at that time. All about the Oklahoma Poll

The question about the Tulsa budget cuts and their effect on the Police Department was asked in the Oklahoma Poll conducted by SoonerPoll.com. The scientific telephone survey was taken from Oct. 31 to Nov. 5 and included 750 likely voters registered in the city of Tulsa. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.57 percentage points. The Oklahoma Poll is sponsored by the Tulsa World.

Nicole Marshall 581-8459
nicole.marshall@tulsaworld.com


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Tulsa World Reader Comments
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Jack Mackerel, Sand Springs (11/7/2009 5:51:10 AM)
Never under estimate the power of a large group of ignorant people!

KansasSooner, Prefer the country (11/7/2009 4:35:21 PM)
I take it DinkieCB is a Tulsa city employee who currently enjoys the ludicrous perk of using a city (ie; tax payer) owned vehicle to/from home every day. I'm sorry Dinkie, but you're reasoning just doesn't hold water with me. I live 50 miles outside the Tulsa city limits and too often see TPD vehicles this far out. Absolutely inexcusable!

livinintheburbs, (11/6/2009 9:43:20 PM)
How many Policemen are sitting in offices doing administrative work.Put everyone that has a badge and a gun back on the street...Protect and serve right?

livinintheburbs, (11/6/2009 9:57:33 PM)
Sad but True

Mar, Tulsa (11/7/2009 10:47:36 AM)
So, FS, why are you making comments regarding TULSA police and TULSA elections when you don't live in Tulsa? Oh, and thankfully YOU don't live in Tulsa.

Few Clothes, America (11/7/2009 11:42:19 AM)
No the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 93 are asking you citizens for donations to hire 3 more TDP back to the old jobs? If I still lived there I would vote for this "When Hell Freezes Over".

Democrat, Tulsa County (11/7/2009 11:02:27 AM)
FS: If you knew why history is taught in school, you wouldn't have borrowed that point about "revisionists" working overtime from Limbaugh or one of the other conservative talking heads. I am a history professional and I understand that ALL good history professionals must be revisionists. In our field, revision occurs as previously unrevealed documents come to light. Perhaps you meant to say "negationists." They are a special category of people who deny that well-documented events, such as the holocaust, occurred. Amity Schlaes provided us with a recent example of a negationist at work. She wrote a recent book on the New Deal in which she claimed that contrary to popular opinion among historians, the New Deal did NOT end the Great Depression. I heard the FOX talking heads discuss and praise her thinly supported book on their shows. The only problem with her thesis is that IT WAS NOT POPULAR OPINION AMONG HISTORIANS THAT THE NEW DEAL ENDED THE GREAT DEPRESSION. The consensus view among historians is that the New Deal instituted many reforms, increasing government involvement in the economy and offered relief to individuals. However, the vast majority of historians have concluded that it was the huge deficit spending of World War II that ended the Great Depression. I will agree that we have to be careful about people who twist history to advance a political agenda. Unlike you, I understand that it is often the right-wing that is doing the twisting.

Democrat, Tulsa County (11/7/2009 11:54:43 AM)
FS: I actually agree with you pro-union points, but I have to wonder if you aren't following the advice that you gave to Mar at 10:53. Did you NOT respond to my point about your ignorance of the term "revisionist history" because YOU exercised the ignore option after finding too much truth in my comment for you to handle? LOL!!!!

Democrat, Tulsa County (11/7/2009 12:07:13 PM)
I applaud you for answering me. Too bad that you are putting me back on ignore. We teach history for far more reasons than the one stated by you. We also would like for people to remember what worked in the past so that we might continue to do the right thing. We teach history to instill pride in our young people about their heritage. We teach history to help students to learn to express their thoughts. Good history teachers encourage students to write. We encourage them to support a thesis with accurate facts and effective analysis of those facts. I am liberal and although I believe that it helps me to be a more effective teacher, I keep my liberal beliefs to myself during class. We can agree that the term "revisionist" has been around for longer than Limbaugh has been poisoning the airwaves. I'm glad to hear that you detest him. However, that doesn't help get you out of your current jam. Good history professionals are revisionists. Bad history professionals are negationists. I hope that you were just bluffing about running away and placing me on ignore again because I have beaten you in a fair argument. This is becoming a bad habit with you. I teach my kids and my students to face up to their problems. Running away is cowardly.

Democrat, Tulsa County (11/7/2009 4:25:01 PM)
FS: Why don't you tell mrnotducks and your other antagonists to put you on ignore again if they can't handle your "truth?" LMAO!!!

Democrat, Tulsa County (11/8/2009 9:34:11 AM)
Don't forget to do away with the Chamber of Commerce while we are on the subject of getting rid of groups that try to bring market "competitors" together in common cause. Let's also abolish all organized religions and all forms of government. Let's get back to the "natural state." Everyman his own King!!

oddy, Santa Fe/Tulsa (11/7/2009 9:25:37 AM)
It's not only the cops that drive their cars home. Other city employee's drive theirs as well. A neighbor takes his to the grocery store on Saturdays and routinely does errands.

FUTURE WORLD, Tulsa (11/6/2009 10:55:17 PM)
It's good she was close by, for not more lives would have surly been lost.

JCash, Tulsa (11/7/2009 8:22:11 AM)
I have said this before and will continue. When halfway pressed Palmer backed off his $1.1 million dollar figure to GUESS it at $500,000. "Police Chief Ron Palmer said Friday that the figure was a "decent estimate, but I am not sure if we would realize that full amount or not when it was finally said and done." " That's the first time, recently, the city has admitted there could be a $500,000 mistake in their own figures. That type of guessing is one reason they are in such trouble....they are pitiful with math. As citizens, you have a right to an opinion, I respect that. But please don't base that soley on economics for the info you are receiving is surely being massaged to keep you on the edge of your seat.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 10:01:00 AM)
JCash: Don't forget many of those you argue with on these boards are good, Republican, union-detesting Baptists - what I just described belies any hope of rational thought when it comes to believing the FOP vs: Cathy Taylor and fellow liars. As an American Airlines employee, I understand how it feels when your employer lies to you and crawfishes on deals at every available opportunity. I recognize the PR campaigns intended to put the workers in their place while leaving a bad taste in the public's mouth. The one thing different in our respective situations is you don't (yet) have a union that's actually an extention of and busy working for the company's interests exclusively while collecting money from you in dues. Such as my voice is (from Broken Arrow), you do have my support, for all it's worth.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 10:05:17 AM)
Another TPS parent, (11/7/2009 9:56:51 AM) DinkieCB If seconds mattered why would the dispatchers call in an officer that they know lives outside the City of Tulsa...wouldn't it be more prudent to call an officer living closer? ... snip _____________________________ Police dispatchers aren't commonly known for being the brightest bulbs in the pack - some are fantastic, but most got the job for one reason.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 10:07:29 AM)
BetterorWorse, (11/7/2009 9:45:59 AM) This just goes to show the further incompetence of Mayor Kathy Taylor and her inability to effectively manage anything when she has been supporting her argument on a study conducted by a mayoral aide that is no longer employed by the City and no one in her so-called 'management' team understands the study nor how to back up its findings. Pathetic _________________________ Manage ? Kathy Taylor managed to enrich herself and her buddies by her "civic" projects. What do you mean she can't manage anything?

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 10:32:50 AM)
democrats_for_Eric_Gomez, as I pointed, I don't live in Tulsa (thankfully) and while I definitely have one, my opinion doesn't account for much - I'll not be able to vote in the upcoming charades. mrnotducks: That's supposedly why history is taught in schools and exactly why the revisionists are working overtime. That old Greek guy that opined "Those who are ignorant of their history are doomed to repeat it" knew exactly what he was talking about.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 10:53:53 AM)
Mar, Tulsa (11/7/2009 10:47:36 AM) So, FS, why are you making comments regarding TULSA police and TULSA elections when you don't live in Tulsa? Oh, and thankfully YOU don't live in Tulsa. _________________________ I'm simply offering an opinion, much the same as you do when you post on these boards. You have the option of clicking the "ignore" button if my posts are too close to the truth for you to handle. Other than that, I'd like to cordially invite you to the theological place of eternal punishment.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 11:45:40 AM)
dollface74128 ... snip This is just another example of how unions do more harm than good. The FOP needs to look at the big picture - there is always give and take, and sometimes you have to sacrifice a little now to get a lot later. But unions don't seem to grasp that concept, they just want as much as they can possibly get RIGHT NOW and screw the future generations. ____________________________ You need to understand a few things about contract law, evidently. When things are written into a contract, there are defined means of changing the terms of the contract. In this case, the FOP membership agreed to the take-home vehicles in lieu of a pay increase some time ago. The city is attempting to crawfish out of the agreement using the court of public opinion. Executives, whom you obviously side with, would not consider working without an employment contract - and may God help the employer that breaks the terms of that executive's contract. The executive trash has trade associations and many other variants of the union representation you detest, most often used to screw over their rank and file employees. You, along with numerous others, seem to believe there's nothing wrong with breaking an employment contract as long as it's not a highly-paid and egotistical SOB on the receiving end - sorry - it simply doesn't work that way. I'm sure the FOP membership would be pleased to entertain an offer from the city re: driving home city vehicles IF the city would care to replace this contractual item with something of equal value to the FOP mebership, much the same as negotiations would be with the group you're obviously enamored with.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 11:55:17 AM)
Democrat, Tulsa County (11/7/2009 11:02:27 AM) FS: If you knew why history is taught in school, you wouldn't have borrowed that point about "revisionists" working overtime from Limbaugh or one of the other conservative talking heads. ... snip _____________________________ History is taught in schools in hopes of teaching people to avoid the pitfalls other generations learned about the hard way - with people like you teaching the liberal side, it's evident the failure future generation are being set up for. By the way - the term "revisionist" has been around much longer than Limbaugh (who I detest) has been spitting into a microphone, but don't bother troubling yourself with facts. FYI - you're back on ignore as your liberal tripe is sickening to me.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 2:27:38 PM)
Whirled Peas, (11/7/2009 1:52:13 PM) The poll just indicates that the taxpayers of Tulsa arent falling for the union argument that police cars parked in Coweta and Muskogee somehow keep Tulsa safe. ... snip _________________________ The poll actually proves that anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of statistics can get a friggin' poll to say anything they want it to say - this is the level of reporting brought to us by the only daily newspaper (monopoly) in the area. WHERE the questions were asked has as much impact on the result as do the answers themselves. SKT, keep hammering away on your message - you have to as that's what the city is doing - trolling for the sheeple with the help of Palmer, the mayor's police whore and mouthpiece.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 2:58:03 PM)
peelumba: This is a negotiated part of the police contract with the city - if the city wants this so badly, they can negotiate with the FOP and substitute something of equal value or give the officers a raise as this perk was intended to substitute for during the LaFortune administration, exactly like an executive's employer would do when said employer desires a change in the contract. Correct me, please, if I'm mistaken, but I don't see you or others complaining about the continual hosing of the taxpayer within city hall - perhaps you could convince them to modify their employment contracts as well and all would be OK. This is not about response times or anything else of consequence, rather, this is all about breaking the FOP in the court of public opinion.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/7/2009 3:01:54 PM)
mrnotducks, Sand Springs (11/7/2009 2:54:35 PM) I think the funds generated by the police department should go to the police department and not in to the general funds to fund other departments within the city. If that would happen, then the police department would be self-sufficient. As it stands now, the police department don't even get a percentage of the funds they generate for the city. This is outrageous!! The police department should also start charging for sending officers to ignorant and wasteful calls where no crime has been committed. If this comment section as any example, the extra money will be flowing in no time. ________________________ ... but then, you'll asking for abusive law enforcement practices like the well-known speed traps around the state. Just like Washington DC, city government needs to be taken back from the self serving fools that continually cause the citizens problems.

FS, Broken Arrow (11/8/2009 6:59:07 AM)
sirwinston, (11/8/2009 12:47:05 AM) I think we need to do away with the unions! _________________________ I agree, along with the professional associations, trade associations, and other defacto unions for the executive types. While we're imagining about how to clean house, how about making employment contracts for BOTH executive and worker illegal and unenforceable?


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